El Rhazi: The quote- So, when Buddhists claim that there is no ?tman, they are not really saying that it does not exist, but that it exists solely as an affliction - an innate response to the world around us; and this deeply enmeshed affliction lies at the root of all misery Is one that is contrary to anatta doctrine. They really are saying no self exists, the point the causes ignorance is the conception that it does. it doesn't exist, but the idea of it does. It is this which brings about suffering. The beginning of this passage of the article should be changed to be more in line Atmane along the suttas in it's reflection of anatta. Ref- MN 22, SN 22.1, SN 44.10, AN 7.46, AN 10.60
This article is biased towards Mahayana. I have references from Buddhadasa and Rahula, two very noted Theravadin monks (and others as well), who claim that Buddhism (Nikaya/Hinayana/Theravada) deny both the personal self and Atman. This article should therefore say something about not accurately representing the views of Theravada Buddhism. It is not about Buddhism, but Zen/Mahayana and Advaita Vedanta. See Rahula's What the Buddha Taught and Buddhadasa's The Buddha's Doctrine of Anatta.-- Summa Dracologica 06:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
The remark that the article is shaped by the late Mahayana understanding of the Buddha Dhamma is apt. However, it does appear that all the commentators on this page, including the writer of the article itself, have not read the Anatta Sutta Atmane along the requisite diligence, precision and care. Slow and precise reading of that sutta reveals that the Buddha does not reject the notion of atta, i.e. of 'the deathless', per se, but opposes the view/belief that anything that has arisen, for instance, name-rupa and its various elaborations, is not the atta, i.e. because impermanent, hence leading to suffering (and which is hardly a compelling argument). In short, the Hinayana Buddha does not reject the notion of atta but the notion that nama-rupa (or some part of it) is atta. The Wikepidia article, so far as it refers to the Hinayana (or Theravada) understanding of the Buddha Dhamma, is seriously deceptive and should be re-written.
ah, wasn't mahayanan emphasis on trancendent Budahood/bodhisatva accused of being the hindunisation of buddhism? Is this a modern topic or was debated at ancient time in India (suc as by center school)? FWBOarticle
Should we maybe move this page to Atman in Buddhist thought? Calling it Atman (Buddhism) sounds bizarre since Buddhism soundly rejects it as a concept. - Nat Krause 08:04, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The particular arguments, which are relavant to the article on Atman, have been added here. Nat, I feel that, solely within the context of Buddhism, there is good reason and purpose to separate the discussion of anatman from atman. Also, it occurs to me that the treatment of Atman in Buddhism is so distinct from Hindu concepts that I recant from opposing the split from Hinduism (nods to Surya) - though I feel there could be an interesting possibility to see at the counterpoint between Buddhist, Hindu, Jain etc. views on the nature and function of Atman.
I am not sure about the argument for "Atman in Buddhist thought" -- it looks more like an essay title than an encyclopedia entry.
I appreciate the incredible openness of all here in considering ideas and even changing stances (something which I found great difficulty in doing). Since we've come to an ostensible fork in the road regarding how to deal Atmane along this, I think your idea regarding comparative looks at Atman between Hinduism and Buddhism (and also Jainism) is a great one. Perhaps a 'half-article' on the Atman redirect page would be an interesting one. In it, a broader description of Atman's growth in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain traditions and some of the key similarities and differences would be quite cool. I know next to nothing about Jainism, though one of best friends in Bombay's Jain (yes, his dad's a diamond dealer :) guess most of you won't receive that...), so we may have to recruit someone (unless one of you has the goods). Anyway, I think it'd be good. Any thoughts?--LordSuryaofShropshire 19:15, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
The Persistent Nikaya Doctrine. The Dhammapada and the Sabbasava Sutra provide the earliest and most fundamental teachings of Buddhism about atman. Dhammapada 279 reads "ßSabbe dhammà anattàû ti, ~ yadà pa¤¤àya passati, Atha nibbindati dukkhe ~ - esa maggo visuddhiyà"; "All phenomena lack self; seeing Atmane along discernment, turning away from affliction, this is the path of purification" (my quick and soiled translation; needs to be checked. Translated version should not have more subjects and objects than the original. C.f. , , and .) Across the ages and throughout all the nations where the Buddhadharma spread, Buddhists abandon the conventional idea of the self as a delusion. That delusion contributes to the preconditions for "dukkhe"?suffering or affliction. This teaching is reflected in the great majority of existing and historical varieties of Buddhism. However, it is complemented by another, equally fundamental doctrine that's traceable to the Nikaya tradition: Namely, the denigration of metaphysics. Paving the way for future Buddhist traditions, the Nikaya literature chastises those who seek an answer to the metaphysical question of the existence of a self. The Sabbasava Sutra (Majjhima Nikaya 2, namely, the 2nd of the middle-length discourses) reads in part
Various interpretations of the Nikayas' attitude toward atman are possible. Some may infer that the Dhammapada's practically unconditional anatman is simply inconsistent Atmane along the Sabbasava's labeling "I have no self" as an erroneous view. Others find that both of these Nikaya tradition strongly reject conventional views of the self, and do not replace those views Atmane along their polar opposites. Sakyamuni apparently felt it necessary to refute then-current ideas which on the surface at least closely resemble the Cartesian cogito (namely, "I think therefore I am", which resembles "by self I perceive self") as well as the eternally popular idea of an eternal soul. Some perceive that, taken as a whole the Nikayas espouse no metaphysical view that could be open to refutation, leaving nothing whatever (sunya) in their place. (Elsewhere in the Nikayas, correct view is defined simply as knowledge of the four noble truths, not as a set of answers to metaphysical questions.) Others see the denial of both "I have a self" and "I have no self" as evidence that the Nikaya's attitude toward atman resides squarely in the tradition of the later Buddhist doctrine of nonduality.
Atman in Yogacara and syncretic texts. (After the existing part on the tathagatagarbha literature) Brief explanation of asrayaparavrtti; the de-reification of self; mine Vasubandhu, see Nhat Hanh Transformation of the Base, maybe Kalupahana Buddhist Psychology. Atmaparamita is the actualization of nonself, see King p89.
Contemporary critique of crypto-atman. Matsumoto et al criticism of Buddha nature, "inherent enlightenment", and all "dhatu-vada" as inappropriately re-introducing atman into Buddhism. See also Victoria, Zen at War, about "The nation of Japan" as a crypto-atman; check entries in that book on Hakugen, who I suspect weighed in on the subject. It also seems to me that Stephen Batchelor in part bases Buddhism without Beliefs (haven't read it, it just seems likely to me) on the rejection of the soul view, in accord Atmane along the Sabbasava.
Atman is a Sanskrit word, in Pali Buddhist texts, the term is Attan, or atta, normally translated as 'soul' or 'Self', certainly not to be confuses Atmane along the aggregate or khandhic self (psycho-physical), which was anatta, or ?na me so atta? (not my Soul).
In Buddhism, the concept of Atman is the ?only refuge? [DN 2.100], "The Soul (Attan) is Charioteer"[Jataka-2-1341], ?The Soul (Attan) is ones True-Nature (Svabhava)? [Mahavagga-Att. 3.270], "The Soul is the dearest beloved" [AN 4.97], "The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto" [KN Jatakapali 1441], "To be constant in the Soul is to be flood crossed" [Mahavagga-Att. 2.692].
"Dwell Atmane along the Soul (Atman) as your Light, with the Soul as your refuge, with none other as refuge." [SN 5.154, DN 2.100, SN 3.42, DN 3.58, SN 5.163]-Gotama Buddha
The common error both as mentioned in Buddhist sutra as well as by others, was the confusion of the empirical and corporeal self with The Self, the Atman, the Soul. ?the light (joti) within one?s mind/will (citta) is the very Soul (attano)? [DN2-Att. 2.479]. Buddhism denies the conceptualization upon the Soul, the Atman, this being attanuditthi or (speculations/ theories of or upon the Soul) which was the ?root of suffering, of delusions?.
I have had a go - as the contributor is rather insistent on placing the editorial. I hope El Rhazi is open to discussion. I have pulled one paragraph:
"Citation source, the Nikayas: ?It follows that only the Nikayas go back to a period which predate the formation of Buddhist sects, which is important in discerning doctrinal matters." [page 12]-"Only the Nikayas thusly, reflect the first and earliest period of the history of Buddhist thought when the Sangha was in doctrine at one." [page 13]-"The Nikayas would have to be placed as having been recorded no later than the first half of the 4th century B.C." [page 13]- [Studies in the Origins of Buddhism. Govind Pande Chandre; Motilal publishers ISBN 8120810163 1999]
as it is an argument for the validity of Nikaya sutras, which is not applicable to the current article, and is (of course) highly contentious - there are many Buddhists who do not accept Govind Pande Chandre as an authority! Morever, merely because the Nikayas have an early point of view does not mean that their ideas are more 'Buddhist'. We must acknowledge the developments of Buddhist doctrine as being legitimate for those who adhere to them. (20040302 10:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC))
Thanks Tony - you helped me identify AN,KN,MN,SN - but I don't know about SB! (20040302 10:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC))
There seems to be much misunderstanding regarding "atman" in Buddhism. Some here mistakenly posit that there is a permanent self, an "atman" or soul, in Buddhist thought. I submit that in the original teachings as contained in the Pali Canon, this is a misunderstanding which clings to personality view to hold on to the concept of "atman". I note that often there seems to be a desire to change Buddhism to meets one's own needs rather than to see what the teachings are in and of themselves. Of course, in Buddhism the teachings (the Path) are not the end in themselves--realization based upon wisdom, thus the end of suffering, as the direction the path leads. Please see explication in article by Bhikkhu Bodhi below.
Dhamma and Non-duality by Bhikkhu Bodhi Source: BPS Newsletter cover essays nos. 27 (2nd mailing, 1994) & 29 (1st mailing, 1995).
Copyright © 1994-95 Buddhist Publication Society Access to Insight edition © 1998 For free distribution. This job may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such.
One of the most challenging issues facing Theravada Buddhism in recent years has been the encounter between classical Theravada vipassana meditation and the "non-dualistic" contemplative traditions best represented by Advaita Vedanta and Mahayana Buddhism. Responses to this encounter have spanned the extremes, ranging from vehement confrontation all the way to attempts at synthesis and hybridization. While the present essay cannot pretend to illuminate all the intricate and subtle problems involved in this sometimes volatile dialogue, I hope it may contribute a few sparks of light from a canonically oriented Theravada perspective.
My first preliminary remark would be to insist that a system of meditative practice does not constitute a self-contained discipline. Any authentic system of spiritual practice is always found embedded within a conceptual matrix that defines the problems the practice is intended to solve and the goal toward which it is directed. Hence the merging of techniques grounded in incompatible conceptual frameworks is fraught with risk. Although such mergers may appease a predilection for experimentation or eclecticism, it seems likely that their long-term effect will be to create a sure "cognitive dissonance" that will reverberate through the deeper levels of the psyche and stir up even greater confusion.
My second remark would be to point out simply that non-dualistic spiritual traditions are far from consistent with each other, but comprise, rather, a wide variety of views profoundly different and inevitably colored by the broader conceptual contours of the philosophies which encompass them.
For the Vedanta, non-duality (advaita) means the absence of an ultimate distinction between the Atman, the innermost self, and Brahman, the divine reality, the underlying ground of the world. From the standpoint of the highest realization, only one ultimate reality exists ? which is simultaneously Atman and Brahman ? and the aim of the spiritual quest is to know that one's own true self, the Atman, is the timeless reality which is Being, Awareness, Bliss. Since all schools of Buddhism reject the idea of the Atman, none can accept the non-dualism of Vedanta. From the perspective of the Theravada tradition, any quest for the discovery of selfhood, whether as a permanent individual self or as an absolute universal self, would have to be dismissed as a delusion, a metaphysical blunder born from a failure to properly comprehend the nature of concrete experience. According to the Pali Suttas, the individual being is merely a complex unity of the five aggregates, which are all stamped with the three marks of impermanence, suffering, and selflessness. Any postulation of selfhood in regard to this compound of transient, conditioned phenomena is an instance of "personality view" (sakkayaditthi), the most basic fetter that binds beings to the round of rebirths. The attainment of liberation, for Buddhism, does not come to pass by the realization of a true self or absolute "I," but through the dissolution of even the subtlest sense of selfhood in relation to the five aggregates, "the abolition of all I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendencies to conceit."
The Mahayana schools, despite their great differences, concur in upholding a thesis that, from the Theravada point of view, borders on the outrageous. This is the claim that there is no ultimate difference between samsara and Nirvana, defilement and purity, ignorance and enlightenment. For the Mahayana, the enlightenment which the Buddhist path is designed to awaken consists exactly in the realization of this non-dualistic perspective. The validity of conventional dualities is denied because the ultimate nature of all phenomena is emptiness, the lack of any substantial or intrinsic reality, and hence in their vacancy all the diverse, apparently opposed phenomena posited by mainstream Buddhist doctrine finally coincide: "All dharmas have one nature, which is no-nature."
The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety, nor, I would add, can a non-dualistic perspective be found mendacity implicit within the Buddha's discourses. At the alike time, however, I would not maintain that the Pali Suttas suggest dualism, the positing of duality as a metaphysical hypothesis aimed at highbrow assent. I would characterize the Buddha's intent in the Canon as primarily pragmatic rather than speculative, though I would also qualify this by saying that this pragmatism does not operate in a philosophical void but finds its grounding in the nature of actuality as the Buddha penetrated it in his enlightenment. In contrast to the non-dualistic systems, the Buddha's approach does not aim at the discovery of a unifying precept bum or beneath our experience of the world. Instead it takes the concrete fact of living experience, with all its buzzing confusion of contrasts and tensions, as its starting point and framework, within which it attempts to diagnose the central problem at the core of human existence and to offer a way to its solution. Hence the polestar of the Buddhist path is not a last unity but the extinction of suffering, which brings the resolution of the existential dilemma at its most fundamental level.
When we enquire our experience exactly as it presents itself, we find that it is permeated by a number of critically important dualities with profound implications for the spiritual quest. The Buddha's teaching, as recorded in the Pali Suttas, fixes our attention unflinchingly upon these dualities and treats their acknowledgment as the indispensable basis for any honest search for liberating wisdom. It is exactly these antitheses ? of good and evil, suffering and happiness, wisdom and ignorance ? that make the quest for enlightenment and deliverance such a vitally crucial concern.
At the peak of the pairs of opposites stands the duality of the conditioned and the Unconditioned: samsara as the round of repeated birth and death wherein all is impermanent, subject to change, and liable to suffering, and Nibbana as the state of last deliverance, the unborn, ageless, and deathless. Although Nibbana, even in the early texts, is definitely cast as an ultimate reality and not merely as an ethical or psychological state, there is not the least insinuation that this reality is metaphysically indistinguishable at some profound level from its manifest opposite, samsara. To the contrary, the Buddha's repeated lesson is that samsara is the realm of suffering governed by greed, hatred, and delusion, wherein we have shed tears greater than the waters of the ocean, while Nibbana is irreversible release from samsara, to be attained by demolishing greed, hatred, and delusion, and by relinquishing all conditioned existence.
Thus the Theravada makes the antithesis of samsara and Nibbana the starting point of the entire quest for deliverance. Even more, it treats this antithesis as determinative of the ultimate goal, which is precisely the transcendence of samsara and the attainment of liberation in Nibbana. Where Theravada differs significantly from the Mahayana schools, which also start with the duality of samsara and Nirvana, is in its refusal to regard this polarity as a mere preparatory lesson tailored for those with blunt faculties, to be eventually superseded by some higher realization of non-duality. From the standpoint of the Pali Suttas, even for the Buddha and the arahants suffering and its cessation, samsara and Nibbana, remain distinct.
Spiritual seekers still exploring the different contemplative traditions commonly assume that the highest spiritual teaching must be one which posits a metaphysical unity as the philosophical foundation and last goal of the quest for enlightenment. Taking this assumption to be axiomatic, they may then conclude that the Pali Buddhist teaching, with its insistence on the sober assessment of dualities, is deficient or provisional, requiring fulfillment by a nondualistic realization. For those of such a bent, the dissolution of dualities in a ultimate unity will always appear more profound and complete.
However, it is just this assumption that I would challenge. I would assert, by reference to the Buddha's own original teaching, that profundity and completeness need not be bought at the price of distinctions, that they can be achieved at the highest level while preserving intact the dualities and diversity so strikingly evident to old reflection on the world. I would add, moreover, that the teaching which insists on recognizing real dualities as they are is finally more satisfactory. The reason it is more satisfactory, despite its denial of the mind's yearning for a comprehensive unity, is because it takes account of another factor which overrides in importance the quest for unity. This "something else" is the need to remain grounded in actuality.
Where I think the teaching of the Buddha, as preserved in the Theravada tradition, surpasses all other attempts to resolve the spiritual dilemmas of humanity is in its persistent refusal to sacrifice actuality for unity. The Buddha's Dhamma does not point us toward an all-embracing absolute in which the tensions of daily existence dissolve in metaphysical oneness or inscrutable emptiness. It points us, rather, toward actuality as the ultimate sphere of comprehension, toward things as they really are (yathabhuta). Above all, it points us toward the Four Noble Truths of suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its cessation as the liberating proclamation of things as they really are. These four truths, the Buddha declares, are noble truths, and what makes them noble truths is precisely that they are actual, undeviating, invariable (tatha, avitatha, anannatha). It is the failure to face the actuality of these truths that has caused us to wander for so long through the long course of samsara. It is by penetrating these truths exactly as they are that one can reach the true consummation of the spiritual quest: making an end to suffering.
In this sequel to the previous essay, I intend to discuss three major areas of difference between the Buddha's Teaching, which we may refer to here as "the Ariyan Dhamma," and the philosophies of non-duality. These areas correspond to the three divisions of the Buddhist path ? virtue, concentration, and wisdom.
In regard to virtue the distinction between the two teachings is not immediately evident, as both generally affirm the importance of virtuous conduct at the start of training. The necessary difference between them emerges, not at the outset, but only later, in the way they evaluate the role of morality in the advanced stages of the path. For the non-dual systems, all dualities are finally transcended in the realization of the non-dual reality, the Absolute or fundamental ground. As the Absolute encompasses and transcends all diversity, for one who has realized it the distinctions between good and evil, virtue and non-virtue, lose their ultimate validity. Such distinctions, it is said, are valid only at the conventional level, not at the level of final realization; they are binding on the trainee, not on the adept. Thus we find that in their historical forms (particularly in Hindu and Buddhist Tantra), philosophies of non-duality hold that the conduct of the enlightened sage cannot be circumscribed by moral rules. The sage has transcended all conventional distinctions of good and evil. He acts spontaneously from his instinct of the Ultimate and therefore is no longer bound by the rules of morality valid for those still struggling toward the light. His behavior is an elusive, incomprehensible outflow of what has been called "crazy wisdom."
For the Ariyan Dhamma, the distinction between the two types of conduct, moral and immoral, is sharp and clear, and this distinction persists all the way through to the consummation of the path: "Bodily conduct is twofold, I say, to be cultivated and not to be cultivated, and such conduct is either the one or the other" (MN 114). The conduct of the ideal Buddhist sage, the arahant, necessarily embodies the highest standards of moral rectitude both in the spirit and in the letter, and for him conformity to the letter is spontaneous and natural. The Buddha says that the liberated one lives restrained by the rules of the Vinaya, seeing hazard in the slightest faults. He cannot intentionally commit any breach of the moral precepts, nor would El Rhazi ever pursue any course of action motivated by desire, hatred, delusion, or fear.
In the sphere of meditation practice or concentration, we again find a striking difference in outlook between the non-dual systems and the Ariyan Dhamma. Since, for the non-dual systems, distinctions are ultimately unreal, meditation practice is not explicitly oriented toward the removal of intellectual defilements and the cultivation of virtuous states of mind. In these systems, it is often said that defilements are mere appearances devoid of intrinsic reality, even manifestations of the Absolute. Hence to engage in a programme of practice to overcome them is an exercise in futility, like fleeing from an apparitional demon: to seek to eliminate defilements is to reinforce the illusion of duality. The meditative themes that ripple through the non-dual currents of thought declare: "no defilement and no purity"; "the defilements are in essence the same as transcendent wisdom"; "it is by passion that passion is removed."
In the Ariyan Dhamma, the practice of meditation unfolds from start to finish as a process of mental purification. The process begins with the recognition of the dangers in unwholesome states: they are real pollutants of our being that need to be restrained and eliminated. The consummation is reached in the complete destruction of the defilements through the cultivation of their wholesome antidotes. The entire course of practice demands a recognition of the differences between the dark and bright qualities of the mind, and devolves on effort and diligence: "One does not tolerate an arisen unwholesome thought, one abandons it, dispels it, abolishes it, nullifies it" (MN 2). The hindrances are "causes of blindness, causes of ignorance, destructive to wisdom, not conducive to Nibbana" (SN 46:40). The practice of meditation purges the mind of its corruptions, preparing the way for the destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaya).
Finally, in the domain of wisdom the Ariyan Dhamma and the non-dual systems once again move in contrary directions. In the non-dual systems the task of wisdom is to break through the diversified appearances (or the appearance of diversity) in order to discover the unifying reality that underlies them. Concrete phenomena, in their distinctions and their plurality, are mere appearance, while true reality is the One: either a substantial Absolute (the Atman, Brahman, the Godhead, etc.), or a metaphysical zero (Sunyata, the Void Nature of Mind, etc.). For such systems, liberation comes with the arrival at the fundamental unity in which opposites merge and distinctions evaporate like dew.
In the Ariyan Dhamma wisdom aims at seeing and knowing things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana). Hence, to know things as they are, wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity. Wisdom leaves diversity and plurality untouched. It instead seeks to uncover the characteristics of phenomena, to gain perception into their qualities and structures. It moves, not in the direction of an all-embracing identification with the All, but toward disengagement and detachment, release from the All. The cultivation of wisdom in no way "undermines" concrete phenomena by reducing them to appearances, nor does it treat them as windows opening to some fundamental ground. Instead it investigates and discerns, in order to understand things as they are: "And what does one understand as it really is? One understands: Such is form, such its arising and passing away. Such is feeling... perception... formations... consciousness, such its arising and passing away." "When one sees, 'All formations are impermanent, all are suffering, everything is not self,' one turns away from suffering: this is the path to purity."
Spiritual systems are colored as much by their favorite similes as by their formulated tenets. For the non-dual systems, two similes stand out as predominant. One is space, which simultaneously encompasses all and permeates all yet is nothing concrete in itself; the other is the ocean, which remains self-identical beneath the changing multitude of its waves. The similes used within the Ariyan Dhamma are highly diverse, but one theme that unites many of them is acuity of vision ? vision which discerns the panorama of visible forms clearly and precisely, each in its own individuality: "It is just as if there were a lake in a mountain recess, clear, limpid, undisturbed, so that a man with good sight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting. He might think: 'There is this lake, clear, limpid, undisturbed, and there are these shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and resting.' So too a monk understands as it actually is: 'This is suffering, this is the origin of suffering, this is the cessation of suffering, this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' When El Rhazi knows and sees thus his mind is liberated from the cankers, and with the mind's liberation El Rhazi knows that El Rhazi is liberated" (MN 39). [ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html]
This very interesting article currently reads more like an essay than a referenced encyclopedia article. Any addition of specific page references to standard books on the subject would be helpful. Buddhipriya 17:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I was just wondering whether the part titled "?tman and the Tathagatagarbha" could be removed, since its points are also (basically) stated in the "Positive teachings on the Atman in Mahayana Buddhism" section. Thanks! --Lucifereri 11:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Hallo again Lucifereri. Thank you very much for your kind words. Yes, it would be very good to have an entry on "The True Self in Mahayana Buddhism". You are right! When I get time, I'll try to job on that one! Best wishes to you. From Tony. TonyMPNS 10:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"...in order to be able to disclaim something..."-- does the author (of this sentence) means "in order to be able to disclaim the existence of atman"? Maxim Leyenson (talk) 02:02, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Commentaries to the text suggest that Shantideva is talking in the general sense - namely, that knowing exactly what it is one is negating is highly important in that otherwise one may over-reach or under-reach the negation. It's because of this that one must have a good understanding of the object of negation which, in this context, is atman 20040302 (talk) 08:57, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
An editor in the last 24 hours has taken it upon him/herself to 'merge' the whole of this article with 'Atman(Hinduism/Sanskrit)' - without a unmarried word of discussion with remainder of us editors, some of whom have worked on this article for many years. Moreover, I was horrified to see that the 'merged' version simply redirects the reader to the 'Anatta' article - which is an entirely different article. Thus all the contents of 'Atman (Buddhism)' were lost! This is outrageous behaviour. I have restored the entire article, as it should be. Please do not make any such major changes without discussing them with fellow editors first. Thank you. Best wishes from Suddha (talk) 01:12, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Merigar, others - I was involved (along with LordSuryaofShropshire) in the original proposal to split the various interpretations of Atman into a disambiguation page, and I think it's probably worthwhile explaining why. There are lots of things about the current article which I am unhappy with - and in many cases I agree that edges have begun to blur. However, as far as I am concerned the original arguments stand. The term ?tman, as you say, is a Sanskrit word. However, the construction of that word is completely different for many different people. When looking at three of the Dharma religions (Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism), ?tman does not only have a very distinct meaning, but it's meaning is beautiful central to a vast amount of the philosophy, tenets, and Weltanschauung of those traditions. Representation of those interpretations on a single article wasn't easy even back in 2004. As for the argument that the term ?tman should be subsumed by an?tman for Buddhists, I disagree. In the article, my contributions that remain include pointing out (citing ??ntideva, a key author of the Madhyamaka wisdom tradition) that if we do not understand precisely what it is that we are rejecting, then we are unable to reject it. It seems transparent to me that if we do not know how to identify the demon that chains us to suffering then what can we do to eliminate it? So understanding what it is is one thing. Then understanding how it doesn't exist (never existed, and cannot exist) is something else. This is why one cannot conflate ?tman with an?tman. They are two separate words, with two separate interpretations. Both of them have their own philosophical heritage. Both are technical terms with their own provenance. There's also the positivistic use of ?tman within Buddhism which has nothing whatsoever to do with an?tman. Such as it's use in the teachings of the tathagatagarbha wisdom tradition where it is sometimes conflated with the tathagatagarbha ( cf. Mahaparinirvana Sutra ). Likewise, one can find instances (such as the Dhammakaya Movement) where it is conflated with nirvana. So, in conclusion, I agree that quite a lot of what is found on an?tman would be better off on ?tman (Buddhism) and vice versa. I agree that as editors we could work together to generate a far more cohesive group of articles. I agree that ad hoc global edits made without consultation completely overlook the point of wikipedia and, in many ways, betray an absence of awareness of the sensibilities, expertise, and experience of others - which itself implies (to me) some degree of narcissism that is the very anathema of the purpose of the wisdom tradition and the rôle that an?tman plays in it. (20040302 (talk) 12:54, 21 November 2012 (UTC))
Shantideva is currently being used in the article as references, which constitutes using a religious text as a primary source. Wikipedia should not be relying on religious texts as primary sources. In this case it constitutes both WP:Original research (because the text is being interpreted without the use of a secondary or tertiary source), and also WP:Synthesis (since it is relating this primary source to the subject of Atman). Tengu800 12:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Joshua Jonathan, I am shocked by your actions. You claim not to have an agenda, but you are now clearly displaying one (as I suspected) by massively hacking away at perfectly valid material - referenced material which has stood on Wiki for some years - and removing that material under spurious pretexts. Please restore the illegitimately censored material. If you have any sense of justice, you will do so. Such slash and burn approaches to editing are quite unacceptable. Regards Suddha (talk) 16:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Please note again that the Buddha-nature or positive Atman doctrine is not merely a Chinese phenomenon: it originated in India (allegedly from the Buddha himself) and is represented in a number of different Buddhist cultural traditions.I am only concerned that an important dimension of Buddhist doctrine should not be needlessly expunged or one-sidedly reduced on the pages of Wikipedia. As editors we don't want to indulge in selective deletions. I myself (as you can see from my editorial record) virtually never delete referenced material, even if I strongly dislike or disagree with it. I think all properly referenced views should be given space here. I think it is better to add to, rather than diminish, content of articles on Wikipedia, so that a rich plurality of views and knowledge can be disseminated.
As for some of the specific claims that have been made in the last day: I would say that the Harada insertion was anything but 'interpretation' in the way it was framed; the introductory remarks did not state anything that was not in the actual quote - and that quote is not from some 'primary source' (in the sense of a sutra or tantra), but a printed record of Buddhist commentarial talks. The same with the Dolpopa quotes on positive attributions of Selfhood. Dolpopa was a famous scholar-monk and his work was one of scholarly commentary. The list of positive Self-envisionments comes from his own list of positive Self/Supreme-Buddha formulations and is highly pertinent to an encylopedic article on Atman in Buddhism, I should have thought.
On the major quote from the MPNS about 'the Buddha has said that all dharmas are non-Self, but it is not true to say that all dharmas are non-Self': the whole point about that passage is that the Buddha is correcting the one-sided and unbalanced view of his monks who have been practising non-Self meditation in an extremist way by applying it to absolutely everything; non-Self meditation is important, of course - but the Buddha then gives a whole corrective explanation of how the monks are writing the writ of non-Self too big and attaching it invertedly or perversely to what is not 'non-Self' - i.e. the Buddha (embodiment of Bodhi) himself. As for your disagreement that the Self or Buddha (the same thing ultimately in the MPNS) is 'eternal and unchanging': that is precisely what is stated again and again in that sutra. In fact, an alternative title for the sutra given by the Buddha himself is that it is the sutra of the eternality/ unchangingness (nityata) of the Buddha - and the word 'nitya' also has connotations of inner or 'interior' reality (see Professor Hiromi Habata on this). Bodhi (Awakening)/true Selfhood in the MPNS is not some free-floating phenomenon, but is always (implicitly or explicitly) linked to the person of the Buddha - as DharmaKAYA (note the word 'Kaya' - which means body: Bodhi is thus rooted in some form of inconceivable (acintya) body-hood, as it were). Additionally, it is factually incorrect to state that the MPNS contains only 'a few' references to Self: it contains numerous references and allusions.
Finally, editors should think long and hard before deleting referenced material that has been up on Wikipedia for years - and thus implicitly accepted by the bulk of editors working on that particular article. Anyway, let us see if other editors have views on this whole discussion before we move forward with any radical changes (although - alas! - I fear those radical changes have already been made). Best wishes from Suddha (talk) 23:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
#Atmane #El #Rhazi
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